Post by solidfalcon3 on Mar 9, 2014 20:19:51 GMT -5
Hi, i've just recently joined and allow me to make the 69th thread here.
So, let us speak about an unlucky villain:
He had everything, a cool design based on old mario villains and Dracula (and you know how awesome Dracula is), a rather interesting personality to be explored (a villain who seemingly was driven by the noble cause of gaining freedom rather than being a Pure Card Carrying Villain.), an absolutely god-like theme song and finally something not seen since Count Bleck, a backstory which pretty much implied he did not start out evil.
Everything was setting him up to be one of the most memorable villains of the RPG.
And then this happened:
Driven by their insanity and the hundreds of naked Bowser posters in their rooms, the game's staff comited a horrible error, they wasted him in favor of someone who we already knew about.
And even, when they had the chance to made him run away for a future come back, they didn't, instead they killed him off without even having him saying some memorable last words like the other villains, instead they just made him inflate and explode, forgeting about him just after.
So is the sad fate of Antasma.
Tl;DR, Let's discuss about how they wasted a perfectly good villain and killed the Marioverse's Dracula in the most anticlimatic way.
Last Edit: Mar 9, 2014 20:23:02 GMT -5 by solidfalcon3
I think you've pretty much hit the nail right on the head. Antasma was an awesome villain. The way they just outright shafted him in favor of Bowser was a complete and utter waste of his potential. Antasma had very little time to shine or develop as a character, while Bowser, on the other hand, is severely overused and has had more than his share of time in the spotlight over the years. Along with him being the main villain in every platformer released in the last twenty years (not counting the Mario VS Donkey Kong games), he already played that role in two other RPGs before Dream Team came along. Like I said before, this most likely wouldn't have happened if it weren't for all the whiny Bowser fanboys out there. Why is it that such an overrated character like him is entitled to all this special treatment, while all other villains in the series (with King Boo being a rare exception) are considered expendable?
Post by Fawfulthegreat64 on Mar 10, 2014 7:02:44 GMT -5
I know right? I think Antasma should return somehow though. Remember Elder Princess Shroob? She exploded too, but her body is clearly seen frozen in Bowser's castle in BIS. The same could happen with any other villain who exploded, including Antasma. I for one, hope that the next Mario & Luigi features an evil alliance between Antasma, Fawful, the Shroobs, and Cackletta. With a slight romantic interest between Antasma and Cackletta. Also TC, your avatar looks so awesome. Where did you find that, or did you make it?
I know right? I think Antasma should return somehow though. Remember Elder Princess Shroob? She exploded too, but her body is clearly seen frozen in Bowser's castle in BIS. The same could happen with any other villain who exploded, including Antasma. I for one, hope that the next Mario & Luigi features an evil alliance between Antasma, Fawful, the Shroobs, and Cackletta. With a slight romantic interest between Antasma and Cackletta. Also TC, your avatar looks so awesome. Where did you find that, or did you make it?
Mmm, i could see Antasma coming back and unleashing the Shroobs trapped in Bowser's Castle to take his revenge and being a Man behind the shroobs but having him coming back with all villains ? No thanks, i feel some of these had their fair moment of spotlight and making them coming back again would just plain ruin their quality but i wouldn't mind them appearing in cameo or like Grodus making a heel face turn, specialy Fawful (i think right now he should come back as Popple's ally, stealing stuffs in secret so he can sell them back in his shop) and please no Cacktasma because it would ruin Antasma's intentions and personality (Antasma is the kind of people who doesn't care about love, he just want to be free, heck he wanted to use Peach's love power just for that)
I still think, being in a year of luigi game that he has a chance of showing up again.
Also there is some interesting stuff in japanese, Antasma isn't a "ghostly bat king" but a Demon King Bat/Devil Bat (Kōmori no maō), his backstory is almost the same aside from the fact he became a figure similar to the current devil/Demon King (or so google traduction said), make that as you will. (Edit: Now that i think, i just realized Antasma's battle form cape, do look like Black wings from the outside)
Wow, you are definitely the master of Antasma knowledge. My Count Bleck style hat is off to you, good sir.I am glad you joined our group. ^_^
Anyway, I kind of like Bowser being used in the RPG games, but I have always preferred him in a comical role. Just look at PM 2, BIS, and Mario RPG as example of a funny Bowser. He is simply too generic to be a main villain in RPG games. You really hit the nail on the head by suggesting Bowser returned as a villain because of complaints, most of which I believe came from him being too nice and stupid in BIS. Now we have serious Bowser in Both Mario and Luigi and Paper Mario. Oh, and that naked Bowser poster comment had me rolling with laughter.
I did enjoy Antasma with his backstory. Bleck is my favorite character because of his and I expected Antasma to join the ranks of Bleck, but he did not.
Post by solidfalcon3 on Mar 11, 2014 6:28:49 GMT -5
Aww thanks you but it's because i'am a huge fan of vampires in general (really love Hellsing and some Dracula films), so when i saw Antasma, i immediately fell in love with him, the fact Sticker Star didn't add any other villain as well kind of helped.
I'am actually ok with Bowser being final boss in RPG once a time but what i truly hated is how they killed Antasma, they had litterally no reason to do that and it felt like a shoot the shaggy dog moment (in comparison it's like they build Count Bleck's backstory only to have him killed in the most humiliating way possible then forgetting about him latter)
As for the Bowser's naked poster, it's an analogy about how freaking popular Bowser is with the furry fandom and it wouldn't impress me that Nintendo is aware of this ("cough"Meowser"cough")
Still i'm hoping Antasma to come back since i feel that unlike Fawful, his arc isn't finished yet and he has more to reveal (specialy that the japanese version implied he wanted to become a devil of sort, so i'd love to see what his "devil" form would look like), i mean a tragic villain who wanted to be free and accidently ate a nightmare which made him think that by becoming a devil, he would gain said freedom, it's pretty awesome.
Last Edit: Mar 11, 2014 7:59:02 GMT -5 by solidfalcon3
I would be devastated if that happened to Count Bleck. I now understand your pain more deeply.
Wow, I had no idea about Bowser's popularity with those kinds of fans! I just do not know what to say about all that craziness. My love for Bleck is not that way!
Well, I hope he comes back. His story is left in the air as it is, unlike Bleck, who's story finished properly. Rarely do I see a villain who wants to be free. If ever.
Hold on a sec an Antasma topic and I haven't replied, silly me
Like Solidfalcon I absolutely ADORED Antasma and was sad about how he was wasted :C. I adored him for multiple reasons: most of which are already mentoined here not to mentoin the fact that I really adore monsterlike characters that didn't start as monsters but rather something made them. Plus I have a thing for nightmare themed characters x)
I must admit that I kinda LIKED the twist (Bowser isn't an idiot for once ahhaha xD) BUT I hated how the game treated Antasma in a humilating way (also after you defeat him he is just mentoined afterwards /like Bowser says that "that Antasma guy was just in way" or something like that).
Also about what Rainvainz mentoined about "people complaining about Bowser suffering villain decay" I read somewhere that Miyamoto himself was dissapointed about how he was treated in SPM. Don't know how Miyamoto thinks about BiS tho
I must say that I really REALLY hope that Antasma returns. Pretty much every other Mario villain (with possible expection of the retro ones (Wart and Tatanga)) got somewhat good storyarc but Antasma still seems to have open arc. I partly hope that he returns as some "secondary rival to Bowser " ( in a way how Captain Syurup is a rival to Wario, or how the Wario bros are secondary rivals to Mario Bros). Quite unlikely but oh well.
Also one last thing about Antasma what I want to say that IF he had got more screentime he would simply have ended as one of the best villains in modern Nintendo/Mario games. Well I still prefer him over the Xnauts, Shroobs and Smithy Gang tho
Also slightly off topic but I kinda want Antasma to be playable in a Mario kart game....It may be just me tho
Last Edit: Mar 11, 2014 14:05:33 GMT -5 by Deleted
Post by solidfalcon3 on Mar 11, 2014 14:31:56 GMT -5
Idk but i'm thinking, there is a small chance he might get referenced this 18 march since it's the end of the Year of Luigi, so i hope they do something special to close the year.
I think i remember Nintendo asked Alpha Dream to make some changes on Dream Team, they did refuse a few of them but they did accept other, so i kinda wonder if they actually did intend to have Antasma being the final boss but then got a letter of Miyamoto which told them to make Bowser the final boss instead.
Still, i hope Miyamoto may care about Antasma since he was Dreamy Luigi's rival, he was countering Luigi's dreams and seemingly was trying to torment him by attacking him in his dreams.
Imo i could imagine Antasma being the kind of villain who instead of attacking physically Luigi, would be trying to break him mentally shouting things like "You are not perfect" or "you vill be always in your brother's shadow" and manifesting nightmares of Mario, preying on Luigi's fears so he could get more powerful.
Last Edit: Mar 11, 2014 14:40:59 GMT -5 by solidfalcon3
Antasma is a more psychological villain and he was in Luigi's Dream's Deep. He knows Luigi's faults and weaknesses, so I agree that he would break Luigi mentally rather than with brute force.
Miyamoto did change the plans for Sticker Star, but I had no idea he did anything with Dream Team. If he did, then darn. He needs to stay away from the RPG section. Yikes. SPM Bowser actually seemed pretty good compared to Thousand Year Door which made him a joke in between chapters(which I loved).
If Miyamoto was truly the one responsible for this, then this only goes to further prove how much of a hypocrite he is. First, there was Sticker Star... He had no problem whatsoever with all the New Super Mario Bros. games being too similar to one another, but then when it came to the Paper Mario series going back to its roots, he suddenly had a problem, even though it had been eight years since Thousand-Year Door was released. Secondly, he was actively involved in the recent Donkey Kong Country games (particularly Returns), and he was perfectly okay with King K. Rool getting cast aside, even though he hadn't been in a main console installment since 1999, but God forbid if someone other than Bowser is the main villain in any Mario game nowadays without some sort of copout. I've said it before, and I'll say it again... Why the hell is Bowser entitled to all this blatant favoritism?
Last Edit: Mar 16, 2014 4:13:12 GMT -5 by SolarBlaze
If Miyamoto was truly the one responsible for this, then this only goes to further prove how much of a hypocrite he is. First, there was Sticker Star... He had no problem whatsoever with all the New Super Mario Bros. games being too similar to one another, but then when it came to the Paper Mario series going back to its roots, he suddenly had a problem, even though it had been eight years since Thousand-Year Door was released. Secondly, he was actively involved in the recent Donkey Kong Country games (particularly Returns), and he was perfectly okay with King K. Rool getting cast aside, even though he hadn't been in a main console installment since 1999, but God forbid if someone other than Bowser is the main villain in any Mario game nowadays without some sort of copout. I've said it before, and I'll say it again... Why the hell is Bowser entitled to all this blatant favoritism?
Well, it's rather pretty simple: Bowser = one of the most recognizable video game villain of the world, recognition = buying = money, therefore putting Bowser in a game = recognition = buy = money.
Do the math, also as far i'am concerned Miyamoto seem ok with Luigi's games having a story and other antagonists (LM:DM had King boo and a pretty dark story for Mario standards and Dr Luigi had new viruses, both had no mention of Bowser at all), so if Miyamoto classify antasma as a Luigi's villain and not Mario & Luigi's villain, then we might see more of him.
And i might blame Alpha Dream as well since in their Iwata ask, they did seem quite fond on Bowser.
Last Edit: Mar 16, 2014 8:41:41 GMT -5 by solidfalcon3
Post by SolarBlaze on Mar 16, 2014 21:25:42 GMT -5
Overusing Bowser due to popularity is already one thing, but this is clearly a case favoritism and nothing more. Like I said in the other topic, they almost completely undermined Antasma, and did just about everything in their power to make Bowser look good, and like Antasma was insignificant compared to him. In reality, it's the other way around. Antasma was the one who came up with all the plans and operations; Bowser did nothing but leech off of his work, and yet everyone gives him all the credit. If it had been up to him, it would've simply been the same boring, repetitive princess-kidnapping plot that he comes up with in just about every game (he even said so himself that his reason for coming to Pi'llo Island was solely to kidnap Peach, even going so far as to say it's his "calling in life"). Bowser's a complete joke of a villain that gets far more attention and recognition than he deserves; by both the fans and the developers. It was already bad enough that some 1996 Nintendo Power issue had him ranked above Smithy, but for the gamer's edition of the Guinness World Records to label him as the "Greatest Video Game Villain of All Time"... There's really no excuse for that one whatsoever, and only goes to prove my point on how overrated he is.
One other thing I feel the need to address. The part with Bowser telling Antasma that he "[doesn't] work well with others" was complete BS. Why? Mario is his single, most hated enemy, and he was able to work with him just fine on quite a few occasions, even to the point where he specifically offered to team up with him in Super Mario RPG and Superstar Saga. While it could be argued that Bowser doesn't work well with other villains who are also aiming to conquer the world, the Mario & Sonic games completely contradict this, because he was able to work alongside Dr. Robotnik (and Dr. Nega, too, if I'm not mistaken) with no problem. So, that "I don't work well with others" thing just doesn't cut it, and was clearly nothing more than a lame excuse for them to have Bowser BS his way into the final boss slot again, for the millionth time.
Last Edit: Mar 16, 2014 22:33:48 GMT -5 by SolarBlaze
Post by solidfalcon3 on Mar 16, 2014 22:03:25 GMT -5
Then you have the fact that some peoples say Antasma would have betrayed him at the end, err sorry but Antasma had like 5 occasions of betraying him yet he never did it (he could have dumped him once free, he could have made Bowser sleep with the dream beats, he could have wished Bowser away with the restored Dream Stone twice, he could have leeched all of Bowser's dream power).
IMO the best plot twist would have been if both stayed allied to the very end with a final battle against both working as an evil counterpart of the Mario bros.
Also about Bowser's favoritism, as much i like Bowser, the last yoshi game kind of confirmed it (Baby Bowser was the main antagonist of the series and yet Bowser somehow warped through time and space just so he could get his final boss place, showing that even variations of himself aren't safe)
Last Edit: Mar 16, 2014 22:08:17 GMT -5 by solidfalcon3
Wow, I never really noticed just how many times Antasma could have betrayed Bowser. That is shocking. He was very loyal. That is oddly deep and admirable for a villain. I agree that the biggest twist would have been a successful partnership. I'm sad Bowser betrayed Antasma. I was sad before, but now I'm really sad.