I also found BiS got his personality down right, not too stupid with some moments of genuine intelligence and while he was doing good things and helping people it was entirely for selfish reasons and still opposed the Mario Bros as one would expect him to.
I agree with you there. He helped, but only for himself. He still had dumb moments, like eating at Fawful's feast, but that was because they appealed to his ego after the cage fight. I thought that was a nice touch. Then he went right back to fighting the Mario Bros. after the final battle too. I really liked that.
Exactly, moments of dumb but still make sense with his character due to his ego. Unlike in SPM where he was just a straight idiot and really didn't feel like all that much of a bad guy.
He wan't supposed to feel like a bad guy in Super Paper Mario, since he was an ally. Just cranky. He was dumb though, for comedy. Thousand-Year Door started that trend with him talking to posters. Although, RPG also had a similar role, but played straight instead of completely for laughs.
He wan't supposed to feel like a bad guy in Super Paper Mario, since he was an ally. Just cranky. He was dumb though, for comedy. Thousand-Year Door started that trend with him talking to posters. Although, RPG also had a similar role, but played straight instead of completely for laughs.
I meant like he doesn't feel a bad guy whose circumstances result in him doing heroic things but for selfish reasons. H feels like his villainy is less a real thing and more just something he pretends to be and the game even tries to put forward the idea that he isn't really all that evil, something I disagree with whole heartily.
Post by solidfalcon3 on Jun 3, 2014 11:42:58 GMT -5
I guess he was ok in DT, i admit it was pretty nice to see him once be the final boss in a series where he is usually the butt monkey (i'm more annoyed at Antasma treatement anyway), BIS was his highlight, definitelly one of his best representation.
I didn't exactly like his character in SPM either, that Bowser become our ally is nice but at least keep his evilness (maybe like having Bowser considering taking the Chaos heart for himself after they defeat Count Bleck or stuff like that)
Last Edit: Jun 3, 2014 11:46:34 GMT -5 by solidfalcon3
I consider Bowser to be one of the most evil characters in the franchise. He's a greedy, egotistical tyrant with delusions of grandeur and he absolutely loves every minute of it.
However whether or not he is THE most evil character in the franchise is definitely up for debate.
Post by solidfalcon3 on Jun 3, 2014 15:17:33 GMT -5
I think it depend of the interpretation.
In SMG and classic games he is definitely one of the most evil characters in the franchise (he isn't called the Great Demon King for nothing you know:P)
In RPG and games like SMS, he tend to be less evil and more funny.
Yeah, like many things in this series it varies from thing to thing. However overall I'd say he's pretty darn evil.
As for the rpgs it again varies but lately, at least for M&L, he's shown to be more evil overall. Like in BiS despite being a protagonist when he learns about the Dark Star he decides he'll take it for himself. Or just before fighting Dark Bowser and DB says that the kingdom will soon vanish he responds by screaming into the air ''THIS KINGDOM IS ALL MINE!!!''
I don't think I need to go into detail about him in DT, and I know how much this bothers you all but the last hour of DT really shows how nasty Bowser can be.
Post by solidfalcon3 on Jun 3, 2014 15:55:24 GMT -5
I already say my point of view, i think it's nice Bowser's character developped to the point he became the final boss.
Now my only two problems is that i think the twist could have been done better (IMO, i would have liked if neither betrayed each other and stayed togheter for the final boss but well...) and Antasma's character and treatement...
I mean he is basically a generic Dracula rip off with a male cackletta appearance whose only purpose is to serve as Bowser's taxi, considering that he is a RPG villain, this is pretty jarring, specialy considering that the other villain that also was inspired by Dracula was none other than Count Bleck and he was pretty unique in term of appearance and personality.
Last Edit: Jun 3, 2014 16:11:43 GMT -5 by solidfalcon3
Well its not the first time this series had an rpg villain lacking any notable character aspects. The shroob princesses are pretty meh personality wise. Count Bleck I'm really not seeing any Dracula influence, other than his name having Count in it there really isn't much connection between the 2.
Post by solidfalcon3 on Jun 3, 2014 16:30:57 GMT -5
That's true but at least BIS showed that they are still alive in Bowser's freezer, implying they could come back and get character developpement, Antasma just plain explosed.
Count Bleck is based on Castlevania Dracula, as both lost a loved one and became evil beings bend on ravaging the world, they also draw their power from a chaos entity (IIRC it is said on Villain wiki and Tv tropes). But as shown, they took inspiration from Dracula and made him something unique, unrecognizable from the other.
Bowser is technically the same, he is inspired from the Great Ox King (or King Gruesome) from Alakazam the great with Kajiu vibes but they managed to turn him into a very unique villain unrecognizable from his inspiration (through if you look closely you can still see that Bowser has some ox features on his face)
When i look at Antasma all i see is "Male Cackletta with Slavic accent that die in a very anticlimatic way" hardly unique if you ask me.
Last Edit: Jun 3, 2014 16:35:48 GMT -5 by solidfalcon3
Well the shroobs could return yes, so could Antasma. We will have to wait till the sequel.
Count Bleck being based off Castlevania Dracula is a bit iffy, being evil due to a lost loved one is a very common plot device and there are all sorts of things you could claim he is based off. Even the chaos element.
Yeah I know about Bowser's origins relating to King Gruesome and you can definitely see the similarities between the 2.
Post by solidfalcon3 on Jun 3, 2014 17:28:01 GMT -5
Personaly, should Antasma come back, i think they should redesign him, the ressemblence to Cackletta work as a homage (it the 10th anniversary of the series) but if he is gonna get an arc like Fawful, then make him his own unique character, so peoples don't go "i through it was Cackletta" but "hey Antasma is back", they can just make a bullshit reason like "Antasma was really an unique villain who got cursed into a bat which is why he ressembled her, when he exploded, the curse broke and now he is back in his true form"
Also make him hate Bowser's guts and actively try to make his life miserable, it would definitely help setting him apart from other villains (as far i'am concerned there is no villains which truly antagonized Bowser, so it could be interesting, specialy if the next game is a BIS sequel)
As i said, i got it from villains wiki and Tv tropes, so IDK (through you gotta admit the wardrobe and the fangs do give him a vampire feel)
Last Edit: Jun 3, 2014 18:30:55 GMT -5 by solidfalcon3
Post by solidfalcon3 on Jun 3, 2014 17:46:00 GMT -5
This is the point, keep the bat and nightmare motif since he is inspired by vampires but make him unique and memorable, that all i want.
At least they wont have to explain why the antagonist would oppose Bowser, might give also a bit of character developpement for him since he never faced a villain who was actively trying to kill him.
But yeah i'm all ok for playing Bowser again (guy should really get his own series)
Post by solidfalcon3 on Jun 3, 2014 18:03:35 GMT -5
Well, Smithy was more like against the whole world and Fawful originally didn't actively try to kill him first (he more like considered Bowser like a pawn for his grand plan, when Bowser started meddling with his plan, he became more involved into killing him)
Antasma would be trying to kill Bowser right in the beggining (might lead to a scene where he end up as the tutorial boss like in DT)
Post by solidfalcon3 on Jun 4, 2014 11:13:30 GMT -5
Can't say otherwise, developpers's love for Bowser is too strong to let him even take a rest (Nintendo should let him take a bit of vacation, too much work can be pretty bad for health:P)
Well I don't think there is any proof that Miyamoto or Tezuka said they have to use Bowser.
In the platformers at least they keep using him due to there being very little story overall so why bother introducing a new villain there that wouldn't really get any development?
Post by solidfalcon3 on Jun 4, 2014 11:58:28 GMT -5
This is right, through when you think about it the other antagonists that appeared weren't never done by Miyamoto and Tezuka (Wart was from another game, Tatanga & Wario were created by a different team, RPG villains a were made from different peoples).
There isn't any proofs, though Miyamoto like to keep his games simple, sometime too much (see Sticker Star), so it might be a reason why he never put new villains in it, might think it would make new players lost.
Personally i don't mind the idea of having a new antagonist as long it's done right (same can apply to Bowser, if his place in the game is done right and is enjoyable then i have no problems with it)
Last Edit: Jun 4, 2014 11:59:26 GMT -5 by solidfalcon3
Post by solidfalcon3 on Jun 4, 2014 12:23:19 GMT -5
It's still implied that he "Uphand the tea table" even as recently as 3D world, so his creative input may be diminished but it's still there.
It's Tezuka however which worry me, he did the NSMB series and has a past of recycling things (see NSMB2 and Yoshi's new island final boss for instance), so i'm kind of worried about Yarn Yoshi since he is joining the developpement team.
Post by solidfalcon3 on Jun 4, 2014 16:52:41 GMT -5
IIRC the Iwata ask said they managed to create the game without Miyamoto "uphanding the tea table", apparently he was still watching the game's developpement, ready to change whatever he didn't like but they managed to please him (must be cat peach, that old pervert )
However it was because of Miyamoto uphanding the tea table that we got Sticker star rather than the more TTYD-like game they originaly planned. He also did that for Luigi's mansion: dark moon (this is the reason we got the stairs boss but surprisingly he was ok with the game having more story, saying that Luigi's games are more atmospheric and different from the mainstream ones)
I'm willing to wait for more infos about Yarn Yoshi (i have faith on Good Feel), all i want is not a recycled Bowser fight but something more new like in 3D world (assuming they doesn't pull a new antagonist or better Yin-yarn )
Last Edit: Jun 4, 2014 16:54:08 GMT -5 by solidfalcon3